Patrick’s Build

Posted by: @pattielipp

@lordtakuban Any recommendations on a reliable kit without breaking the bank? I'd like to stay under $300, the cheaper the better...

 

I'll jump in here, I added an injection kit to my twin turbo Z28 years ago.  Once you see how they're put together you can even go d-i-y.  Snow Performance is a popular brand but I used Alky-Control, think the owner's name was Julio. They were very helpful and got their start way back with the turbo Buick crowd.

https://www.alkycontrol.com/

be advised, Snow Performance has been acquired by Nitrous Express, and customer service is now sub par. I have some recent experience with this as I have been trying to purchase a progressive MAF based kit, SNO-212. Multiple vendors are still selling these kits. I have bought two, and returned two. They are marketed as MAF or MAP progressive, comeing with a VC-25/MAF or MAFU controller. Both kits arrived, with a SNO-212 sticker on the outside of the box. Inside the box I found the VC-30, which is only a MAP (boost reference) controller. The MAF stuff isnt manufactured anymore, but NX continues to market kits with these item numbers on the box, with different contents inside. What a load of crap.

With that said, I learned after the fact that the provided MAP sensors that came with the kit put out a 0-5V signal, just like our MAF sensors, and theoretically the wiring could have just been attached to the stock MAF and it would have functioned the same, given one could figure out how to set the start and full correctly on a controller that displays MAP values received from a MAF instead... that would be annoying at the least.

Also, being your build is turbo, MAP based progression is perfectly suitable. I am adamant about MAF based progression for my build because I will be installing a positive displacement supercharger. There is no boost "build up," Ill be in vacuum, or full boost. No point in having a progressive controller if it would still function as just an ON/OFF switch.

@marsrock7 This adds some interesting info into the mix, and frankly areas that I am ignorant on. School me on the theory of meth injection usage. 

My understanding, based on what you said and what i've read, is that using a MAP sensor, when boost is registered, it turns "On" the meth injection. I have read, an as you stated, some people use a progressive map where the meth injection directly correlates to the amount of boost being generated, or others who are an all or nothing, on or off.

I can see the benefit of both of these systems, one being easier to implement and a simpler system, while the other provides a more controlled ramp and uses less methanol(or whatever mix you decide) at the expense of a more involved/complex system.

@marsrock7 What EMS are you using? I am very familiar with the PFC in NA builds, but not so much in FI, so I am not all that familiar with the external control it can provide. 

@pattielipp

I am unfortunately only somewhat booksmart on the topic. I have done a significant amount of research (more like analysis paralysis) on meth systems specific to positive displacement supercharging. The RSX community has a huge thread about it. I believe I also came across some topics on AdChat regarding turbo+meth and no physical intercooling. I'll dig through my notes for links in a bit. I have no firsthand experience, besides opening a couple of boxes to find their contents no longer match what vendors believe is in them.

Basic kits, or "stage 0-1" give you a fixed amount of injection at a certain point. The controlling mechanism could be a variety of things but typically on the cheap, is TPS or boost reference. The engagement point could be on WOT, positive air charge, or at a point of the users choosing. Beyond that, the only other choice you get is what nozzle you use. Lots of tradeoffs here. Big nozzle to help the top end specifically, but may bog at lower engine speeds, or a nozzle that helps the midrange the most but may become underwhelming at higher engine speeds... you get the picture.

Progressive kits, typically called stage 2 or higher, help to reduce the tradeoffs by giving the user the the ability to choose start and full engagement points, based on MAP/MAF signals, or even injector duty cycles. Higher priced kits even allow you to build an injection curve rather than just a linear increase between start and full. 

I believe a kit that follows injector duty cycles is the pinnacle of methanol delivery systems, but it comes at a price, as well as increase complexity.

Misc items to consider:

Manufacturers tend to recommend too large of nozzles. 

When choosing the right nozzle(s), keep in mind there will be a difference in delivery depending on if you inject pre or post compression. There is also the option of injecting both pre and post compression (I plan to do this).

Injecting pre-compression CAN be done, even though many will tell you it cant. With superchargers, there have been some rotor coatings that didnt like it in the past, but that is no longer an issue. With a turbo or a supercharger, the primary point of failure is degradation of the turbine or rotors due to liquid droplets hitting them at high speeds (especially turbos, the compressor turbine is going incredibly fast compared to a supercharger). This is easily resolved by ensuring whatever you are injecting is fully vaporized BEFORE getting to the compression stage. Many of the oldest methanol specialists around have been doing this for ages with no issues, and for older vehicles, even running the entire fuel delivery system through the compressor (Think about carbureted supercharged setups).

As for me, I am using an E-Manage Ultimate coupled with the stock ECU. I am now building my own methanol kit around a Snow Performance VC-25/MAF controller I purchased used. Once this global mess is over and I am back on my feet financially I'll be sourcing the other parts to complete my kit and start playing around with it. 

I dont know if the PFC can control a meth kit, does it have an option to control a 5th, or more injectors? I believe Hondata, or one of the Honda aftermarket ECU options does this and some have utilized it for methanol injection. 

Great info! I'm going to be doing a turbo build in the future with an Emanage Ultimate I already have. 

@marsrock7  If you inject water before the turbocharger's compressor you will destroy the compressor.  I can absolutely guarantee it.  At any speed above roughly half of peak shaft rpm, even the smallest water droplet will damage the compressor blades.  I have been an engineer for one of the top turbocharger companies for a long time and have seen the results first-hand.

Dave

Posted by: @dblotii

@marsrock7  If you inject water before the turbocharger's compressor you will destroy the compressor.  I can absolutely guarantee it.   I have been an engineer for one of the top turbocharger companies for a long time and have seen the results first-hand.

Dave

 

I recall talk of some people doing this back in the day and wrecking their build.  Besides the octane boost, the injection should be done after the air is compressed to gain the benefit of cooling the charge.  Some people used to equate it to an inter cooler effect. If you're injecting pure alky, the cooling is so dramatic it can eliminate the need for inter cooling hardware. On my LS engine I had modified the spark timing and closely monitored the knock sensors. Injection turned on a 3.5psi.

@dblotii 

I absolutely agree with you that any size water (or any other liquid) droplet will destroy the compressor. This is why I mentioned the injected liquid must be fully vaporized before reaching the compressor. Inject further away, and/or inject less. Regarding injection pre-compression, I will say the risk is exponentially higher doing so on a turbo rather than a supercharger. On either setup, the user must be especially diligent to ensure their system is clean and injection is working properly. Of course you have seen the results of doing it wrong firsthand. Those who do it correctly don't have to mail in a trashed compressor.

@Dave

Cooling would be even more dramatic with a 50/50 mix, and most dramatic with pure water. Methanol does cool some but water cools much better. Methanol vaporizes easily and water... Not so easily. 

I would not recommend anyone to inject solely before the compressor., if there were any other option. If someone were only wanting to inject in one place, the most benefit would of course be realized post-compression. If someone wanted to get a little extra benefit from their setup with nothing more than a T in the line and second injector, that second injector could be placed pre-compression. Injecting pre-compression offers the benefit of cooling the charge, and to a minor degree, cooling the compressor itself. We all know cooler air is more dense, and more density equals more oxygen. Every car gets a little more oxygen when its 50* outside rather than 100*, injecting pre-compressor can provide the same effect, with or without post-compressor injection.

Again, this is likely much more risky to attempt with a turbo, or centrifugal compressor. A turbo would also likely see less benefit given it is physically a part of the exhaust system and there's no getting away from that heat completely. 

Injecting pre-compressor is most often done with positive displacement superchargers. A significant amount of PD blowers have no simple or cheap method to inject (or intercool for that matter) post-compression, so injection is run through the blower instead.

The typical 50/50 mixture, by weight, not volume, equates to roughly 44/56 water/meth by volume. 102 ounces of distilled water with 128 ounces (1 gallon) of methanol, which easily fits in a 2 gallon container. This mixture is common because it is relatively safe to handle (although technically flammable) without a large amount of flammable fumes.

@pattielipp

I'm sorry for derailing your thread...

Some anecdotal reference material:

https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/discussion-on-turbo-2zz-afrs-and-meth-water-injection.19721

https://www.clubrsx.com/threads/water-meth-injection-with-roots-superchargers.706990/

https://www.clubrsx.com/threads/water-methanol-injection-supercharged-q-a.549019/

Water injection actually does 2 things to reduce knock:  The heat of vaporization cools the incoming charge and the net reduction in inducted temp has a direct knock resistance benefit.  The second (separate) benefit is the benefit of humidity on knock resistance.  Regardless of temperature, higher humidity reduces knock tendency (like raising Octane).  The humidity benefit is a function of the how it changes the ratio of specific heats (think of it as a chemical property) of the mixture, and also changes some of the complex chemistry of combustion.  And yes, the ambient humidity does effect knock tendency.  The worst weather for knock is hot and dry.

Methanol mixed with water also has the chemical effect of increasing Octane chemically, since Methanol has a very high Octane number.

For most effective water injection benefit, inject the water as close to the intake valves as possible, so more of the heat of vaporization goes into the cylinder and less into the intake system.  The most effective water injection is directly in the cylinder (like where the GDI fuel injectors are).  You can find several SAE papers published on this.  

Finally, realize that (except for direct water injection) the water displaces some air and so the turbocharger has to work harder to force the same amount of air in the cylinder.  This is why water injection can actually reduce power at low revs when the turbo is already working as hard as it can (wastegate closed).

Oh and another thing, tap water is not recommended because the minerals deposit on the intake valves and in the cylinders and can cause excessive wear.

Posted by: @pattielipp

@lordtakuban Any recommendations on a reliable kit without breaking the bank? I'd like to stay under $300, the cheaper the better...

 

Sorry.  I just saw this.  I've been super busy with my day job these past few weeks.  Anyway, I've been really happy with my Snow Performance Stage 2 kit with the low-level indicator add-on.  I don't know how much that kit costs these days, but I thought I got it for $250 way back when.  If you can find one on sale or lightly used, you should grab one.

The stage 2 kits I purchased that were boost reference were about $350 

Posted by: @marsrock7

The stage 2 kits I purchased that were boost reference were about $350 

Yeah.  It's been a long time (like 2007 or 2008 when I bought mine).  And my memory is only so good on pricing details from back then.  🙂

 It's still a great kit though.  And Snow Performance stands by their products, too.