Cannot disengage parking brake!

My car came with 1 functional parking brake cable. My driveway has a constant incline, and I learned the hard way that 1 cable pulled as tight as possible is not enough. One day I got some frantic knocking on my door, the Toy had rolled out of my driveway and blocked two lanes of traffic. Thank the powers no one hit it. I had about 40 cars stacked up waiting for me to get my car back in my driveway. 

Shortly after, the car was put on a lift to change out two struts, and the remaining cable snapped. Now I have no parking brake at all. It gets parked in first gear now, and at home I also leave 2x4s out on my driveway as drive-over wheel chocks. 

PO had already bought new cables, I still have them sitting in a box, waiting for the day I choose to tackle that project...

Fun! Latest brakes-related chicanery from The Frog:

Leaving work today, little stop in the parking lot, the brakes were un-powered, as though the engine were off. Gotta mash hard, but not squishy, stops nearly as well as normal, like any unpowered brake behavior, except for that little part where the bloody engine is ON.

Then, they were totally normal, like The Frog always does. You seeing the pattern??

Got on highway, and this is a good time to say it is 35F ambient, and raining kinda hard, 149% humidity, maybe more. (and just aside: my s.drives, while hard as hell and riding like wagon wheels, are still handling the rain with poise).

I drove the highway with all the December Dolts. Then it happened again on the exit ramp. In contrast with the parking lot event, THAT was unnerving, at 55mph and expecting that normal kickass The Frog brakes action. Not. Cool. The. Frog!

No close calls because I was already in careful mode, but I wonder if this might be related to the opposite behavior a few weeks ago.

Otherwise, what could it be? Bubble in  the lines? I've had that briefly on my old Celica after a brake job, before I bled them, and that makes them soft, IIRC. The Frog's arent soft, just unassisted which still is. not. cool.

So, bad pump?

Or, is ice/water in the brake lines a thing (cant see why not), and could that cauae both behaviors? In my ignorance, I could guess at how both could easily be caused by a glob of water, or 37, cruising around in there could both freeze them in place at 17F like it was a while back (the theory being that the p-brake cable worked and is fine, it was the brake line that held caliper), while today, the theory would say that this same water just made for shitty brake fluid, and temperature only factored as far as whether it was water or ice. But this seems a bit improbable, maybe, because a) four wheels implies they all got water at once and b) why not happening more often? Maybe water goes down, settled at the caliper. Or it is in the pump, which would hit all four lines, or a pair. I admit not even knowing the details of the braking system, if you havent gotten that yet.

The Frog is aptly named, though: he really, REALLY hates cold. I didn't have any issues outside winter, but I've only had him a year. His petulance started up as soon as it got cold, though.

I don't use my parking brake, I chock my wheels in the driveway... you've seen my driveway, it's steep.  Mine took a trip across the lawn and met my neighbor's truck one day, which is why my back bumper has a few scratches on it.

At the beginning of this year, I had the whole system bled out, got new pads and replaced the fluid with Redline RL-600 DOT-4 and it's been great.

Posted by: @nottamiata

Fun! Latest brakes-related chicanery from The Frog:

Leaving work today, little stop in the parking lot, the brakes were un-powered, as though the engine were off. Gotta mash hard, but not squishy, stops nearly as well as normal, like any unpowered brake behavior, except for that little part where the bloody engine is ON.

Then, they were totally normal, like The Frog always does. You seeing the pattern??

Got on highway, and this is a good time to say it is 35F ambient, and raining kinda hard, 149% humidity, maybe more. (and just aside: my s.drives, while hard as hell and riding like wagon wheels, are still handling the rain with poise).

I drove the highway with all the December Dolts. Then it happened again on the exit ramp. In contrast with the parking lot event, THAT was unnerving, at 55mph and expecting that normal kickass The Frog brakes action. Not. Cool. The. Frog!

No close calls because I was already in careful mode, but I wonder if this might be related to the opposite behavior a few weeks ago.

Otherwise, what could it be? Bubble in  the lines? I've had that briefly on my old Celica after a brake job, before I bled them, and that makes them soft, IIRC. The Frog's arent soft, just unassisted which still is. not. cool.

So, bad pump?

Or, is ice/water in the brake lines a thing (cant see why not), and could that cauae both behaviors? In my ignorance, I could guess at how both could easily be caused by a glob of water, or 37, cruising around in there could both freeze them in place at 17F like it was a while back (the theory being that the p-brake cable worked and is fine, it was the brake line that held caliper), while today, the theory would say that this same water just made for shitty brake fluid, and temperature only factored as far as whether it was water or ice. But this seems a bit improbable, maybe, because a) four wheels implies they all got water at once and b) why not happening more often? Maybe water goes down, settled at the caliper. Or it is in the pump, which would hit all four lines, or a pair. I admit not even knowing the details of the braking system, if you havent gotten that yet.

The Frog is aptly named, though: he really, REALLY hates cold. I didn't have any issues outside winter, but I've only had him a year. His petulance started up as soon as it got cold, though.

 

The only time I ever felt that was when I used Motul racing brake fluid and it was cold. It felt like the pedal got so hard that the brake booster was not working.   

 I come to find out that Dot 4 and its other variant Dot 5.1 does not like the cold or extended use when it takes in water.  These fluids are more viscus and can give you a wooden pedal, that is why the industry has switched to low viscus Dot 4 for some cars that require Dot 4 for cold weather performance. 

It might just be in my head but I have found Toyota red bake fluid to be the best and it is rumored that its formulation works the best in our braking systems.

Thanks for the info everyone.

This morning it was NOT below freezing, nor has it been below freezing for a couple of days, but I had the seems-like p-brake issue again.  Because I had to know, I gave it some gas like the first time this happened a couple of weeks ago...

No movement with gentle reverse, so I eased it up a bit to maybe 1500 or 2000 RPM, there was a loud thump, about like ABS banging (a clue, perhaps, and my ABS has always sounded about like a hammer on the rotors... it's really loud, is that normal?), and the car moved.

The bang came from one or both rear wheels, and there was no other grinding sound afterward. Even so, I put it in first, went forward a foot, applied p-brake, turned it off, re-chocked the wheels and drove the xB to work.

So that's about enough asshattery from the brakes. From these later behaviors, I suspect the parking brake cable has been working fine and I either have water in the fluid, or a caliper that is trying to die.

I still see this as a learning opportunity, but I am taking it to my mechanic today. I could bleed the brakes myself, but if it turns out its a bad caliper, I just want them to do it. I could likely tackle that job too, but I don't have the free time right now, but I do need my The Frog. Also, if it is indeed the caliper, it would be best to do that, well, two weeks ago, but now is better than never so I don't have to replace the whole wheel, or the whole The Frog.

The Frog, we gotta talk, man... I cringe to even say it, but you leave me no choice: are you a lemon?

It was about 22F this morning. Guess what? Stucks again.

Pretty sure it is water in the cables, altho might be over confident. Today, the PB handle did not even fall to the console. There was a bit of spring, felt just like pushing against a braided wire, and when pulling back up, there was no resistance. Not sure exactly what is keeping the inner cable from moving, but 99% positive it is *not* moving.

So I am planning for the worst (replacing the cables) and hoping for the best. I mentioned earlier trying to inject grease. Still might try that after I see the ends. 

But first, my initial effort will be removing the water and maybe preventing re-infiltration (but if not, if the fix is easy, life can go on with periodic flushes).

How do I get the water out? The same way that gas treatment does: our old friend alcohol. If I can get some alcohol in the cables, it should mix with the water. If it drains, great, that should carry a lot of the water with it in a slightly-less-viscous solution.

If it does not drain, then I wonder how the water got there initially (??!), but also, alcohol has a much lower freezing point than water, so it will be full of weak anti-freeze. Only concern is the volatility; alcohol is not exactly on the same level as ether or anything like that, but it does expand a good bit more quickly than water when it evaps. I may be able to use that to my advantage somehow, too. I doubt it is a big enough volume to care about even the worst-case event, though.

I am hoping it does drain, and hopefully at the caliper side, so that after the flush I can lube the interior of the cables somehow.  Initial efforts will give me some idea how viable the lube plan is.  Instead of lithium grease, I may consider using soap. Unsure what other lube options to consider, but I recall that the inner jacket might be unhappy with some substances; need to go back and re-read that. Is anti-freeze slippery? Don't tell me I will need the Magic Red... I do have some, actually. And some old 'Gatorade' too.

LOL, its been so long, I had forgotten you guys said "it is not actually water and you cannot inject a cure".

Well, drat, I guess.

Given the data I have, The Frog's cables seize up in the cold. It is interesting that cyclehead's problems happened in the heat. Shrug, thermal movement is still movement.

Well, it looks like I will be replacing the cables.

I got most of the explanation for that process. Do I understand correctly that the OE cables are clipped to the car somewhere inaccessible and cannot just be pulled through? Is that the section of cable that stays behind in the "I aint got time for this messin' " version of the fix?

The cable runs under the gas tank, or over it? If under, how does the gas tank block access?

I need a repair manual, damn me.

The thing I still cannot visualize (but I do not doubt) is how anything between the console and the engine bay is inaccessible if what we are after is *under* the gas tank. I know I will find out, but that whole mysteryland between the cubbies and the firewall only like eight inches thick, right?

Still, that area is completely unexplored territory for this newb. Maybe the Spyder has some 4-dimensional space right there, almost infinitely large, but it only intersects our three dimensions in that shoe-box-sized space behind the cubbies. Who knows what's actually in there... can I put about 500 lbs of The Frog's weight in there sonehow when I have half the car taken apart to replace a silly frickin' cable?

The back wall of the cubbies is the firewall.  I cut through mine to make an access door for spark plugs.   The floor of the cubbies (underneath all the plastic shelf pieces) is the firewall where the gas tank lives.   I don’t think there’s any dead space gaps.

Thanks, Cyclehead. I watched a decent video (pretty good, really) of a guy replacing the cables along with the fuel filter and regulator. The old "while yer in there kind of thing.

Very good illustration of the challenge. I know the eggheads at Toyo had their reasons, but I would bet that if these cables didn't make two (I viddy it correctly, yes?), TWO right angle turns, they probably would have fewer issues with binding up. But I am probably under-thinking it. I wouldnt suggest running a tube straight thru tge gas tank for cheap parts (labor is another story!) to pass through.

Still, I get it now, and appreciate the replies.

One last mystery for me, though. In my case, the danger zone starts seemingly right at the freezing point. I know from my Seinfeld wisdom that there are no big coincidences or small coincidences, but you gotta admit, that's a pretty big coincidence... are we really sure it's not an ice issue?

Half of the diagnostic advice I am hearing is wrong, cuz half says ice, other half says no such thing. Both have compelling reasons and anecdotes (and your "F-U" solution, Cyclehead, still makes me grin... you showed them little sumbitches, lol).

Or, maybe ice can be one cause, and simple wear and tear, exacerbated by the tortuous path the cables must take, can happen regardless of temp or water infiltration. I suspect The Frog has the water version, if such a thing really exists. They wouldn't necessarily be mutually-exclusive, either; The Frog's cables could have both problems that only add up to failure when < 32F.

Actually, they are OK at 32F. 25F is closer to the failure point, but there has been no rigorous data collection method; it just happens on the silly-cold days. Yes, around here, under about 27F is silly cold. Where you live, silly-hot might be 90F, here it's not until 102. 90F is just a warm April day...

My anecdotal evidence is as follows:

My E brake will not let go when it's cold.  Er go, I do not use the E brake, ever.

I have zero brake problems now.  

Posted by: @pwnzor

My anecdotal evidence is as follows:

My E brake will not let go when it's cold.  Er go, I do not use the E brake, ever.

I have zero brake problems now.  

Why do you call it an “E” brake? Remember when things go wrong it just got worse