Underdrive Pulley

Dev, you're certainly a respected member of this community, and I have no basis upon which to cast doubt over what you're saying.

I'm going to move forward with installing the cat pipe, which as you said is manufactured by someone else.  They simply had the cheapest price on that part.

As for the  pulleys and the water pump, the pump itself is not manufactured by them, so I'll trust that part as well.  The pulleys, well - they're a solid piece of metal with no moving parts of their own.  No bearings to fail or anything of the kind... so we'll see what happens.  If, for some reason the results are unsatisfactory then the pulleys and belt are easy enough to change.

As for horsepower claims, it's neither here nor there.  If the throttle is slightly more responsive, then I'll count it as a win.  It was a $100 gamble for the two pulleys and the belt.  

Perhaps MWR's workmanship is suspect, but I'm not getting anything built by them.  Can you cite an instance where an actual part has failed or broken?

Another advantage of a larger Alternator pulley is reducing the peak alternator speed.  At redline, the stock alternator is running around 15,000 rpm.  The OEM choice of pulley ratio is based on being able to charge the battery at idle with all of the cars electric loads on.  For many of us, worst-case idle is not a big deal, so we can extend the alternator life a bit, and reduce the effective inertia, by going to a large alternator pulley.

 You get what you pay for but in most cases you shouldn't have to overpay for an OEM part when a lesser part can fit the bill so it comes down to cost and some work arounds, and a bit of frustration.   The OEM catalytic converter is going to be the best one made for both fitment and for the catalyst so it doesn't burn out prematurely.  For a non enthusiast I would never point them to the cheaper options and instead would tell them to buy a used low milage cat from salvage with a warranty because the available options can have issues and it's not rare.  

The aftermarket stuff has all sorts of fitment issues from the manufacture that doesn't  have the same resources that Toyota has as well as the premium materials that make it expensive.   These options can be plagued with leaks and catalyst that throws a code that is no longer efficient.  Many have had these issues so it's not uncommon. 

 Incidentally a few months ago I helped a local member replace a aftermarket  cat that was purchased from what I believe was Napa by his mechanic that lasted less than a year and was under warranty so they told him to buy the replacement and when he sends the old one back he would be refunded.  

After I removed the cat we discovered the new cats flange opening where the two ring gaskets sit was too small.   This manufacturing blunder cost us about an hours of wasted time trying to dermal out the gasket or the opening to get it to fit but it wasn't working.  Ultimately I had to use one of the two Rimflex gaskets that I made for my own leaking Che downpipe that keeps burning though gaskets.  If I didn't have that gasket on hand the only option was to loan him my previous downpipe until his issue was rectified from the manufacture but fortunately the gasket that I made is still working well for him.  Now his issue will be if this cat is going to burn out again and be a never ended cause of frustration.  

MWR has their stuff manufactured by other companies and because of their unscrupulous practices will probably go with the cheapest contract to get stuff done to turn a profit.  This has resulted in headers where flanges that wasn't true or not stressing that the 02 sensor location for the 2ZZ swap  is only for CA to fool the emission regulators and the proper placement for the 02 sensor is on the Downpipe.   They don't care and let people do stupid things.  The flywheel that they sell under their name caused my friend to have to pay double the labor because they dropped the ball when the engine wouldn't turn over due to their mistake.  Another local member that got a 2ZZ swap from them had to take their car to another shop because they did horrible work on his car where bolts were missing and all sorts of fitment issues.  There are other things like valves dropping and the QRP knock off stuff that doesn't work.  What is worse is  a member bought a OEM knock sensor from them which is expensive and instead sent him the knock off part which didn't work and upon discovery it was found out what they did.    There are plenty of stories like selling low millage engine that turned out to be  high millage engines that failed and when showing the evidence though the VIN number they would take their time to resolve  the matter and only give out partial compensation after numerous calls.

 Do you really want a company like this to buy parts from.  Its one thing to buy from them if its going to be drop shipped but when they send it to you I would look that part over with a skeptical eye because it could be a used part that someone didn't want or possibly some kind of defect they want to pass on to the next guy.  MWR has a bad reputation with the lotus guys for exactly the same kind of things. 

 As far as the pulleys go there was always controversy in car communities for years with the crank pulley.  Despite this, those in  favor of them doubled down and said their would not be a problem and convinced others that were on the fence because they reported not to have any problems but obviously this kind of damage doesn't happen  overnight and most that adopted them usually never have enough long term miles to see their desastorous effects.    Over time the crank pulley proved to be the cause of bearings going bad because they did not have the weight/weight balance  and rubber isolators to absorb harmonic stresses for which the manufacture designed. It is no longer controversial and is universally excepted that it is not a good idea because there is enough evidence to show that engines will not last long.   As far as the water pump  pulley and the alternator the devil is allways in the details. There is a lot of engineering science that goes into matching components, weight of the item and balance tolerances that could cause a stress on the bearings of the water pump and alternator to have them fail and leak coolant everywhere.  I do not know if it would cause an issue but it's taking a chance down the road. The good news is that it would be isolated to a component failure so go for it as its probably not going to take out your engine but for that little bit of performance it's not really worth the trouble.  If it did free up the equivalent of 5hp I would certainly do it. 

   I don't want to come off dismissive with all aftermarket parts being bad as some have done well over the many years and miles like the High and Tight end links, SuperPro poly bushings and so forth but those end up being the exceptions.  So much aftermarket stuff is junk but fortunately there are work arounds that can be passed on to others so they can be good value and that is where the community comes in to solve those issues by learning from someone else's frustrations.   For all other stuff buy low millage used as the success rate for me is much higher than aftermarket and the price is usually reasonable.  

Posted by: @dblotii

Another advantage of a larger Alternator pulley is reducing the peak alternator speed.  At redline, the stock alternator is running around 15,000 rpm.  The OEM choice of pulley ratio is based on being able to charge the battery at idle with all of the cars electric loads on.  For many of us, worst-case idle is not a big deal, so we can extend the alternator life a bit, and reduce the effective inertia, by going to a large alternator pulley.

As I wrote the alternator keeps my micro-battery at 14.2V at idle with 110W headlights on so no issue.

So win - win ; lower stress on the alternator and a bit less inertia, no downside.

Supersimple pulley swap whereas changing a worn out alternator.... not thát easy.

Posted by: @petrus

Posted by: @dblotii

Another advantage of a larger Alternator pulley is reducing the peak alternator speed.  At redline, the stock alternator is running around 15,000 rpm.  The OEM choice of pulley ratio is based on being able to charge the battery at idle with all of the cars electric loads on.  For many of us, worst-case idle is not a big deal, so we can extend the alternator life a bit, and reduce the effective inertia, by going to a large alternator pulley.

 

As I wrote the alternator keeps my micro-battery at 14.2V at idle with 110W headlights on so no issue.

So win - win ; lower stress on the alternator and a bit less inertia, no downside.

Supersimple pulley swap whereas changing a worn out alternator.... not thát easy.

 

 

Is it at 14.2 all the time at idle?

@dev

Stable through the rev range.

Same as before the pulley change.

The cat pipe is from Magnaflow.  

One of, if not THE highest rated manufacturer of catalytic converters.  I'm not worried about part even a little tiny bit.

It sounds like a few people have had a bad experience with individuals giving them bad service at MWR.  This is in contrast to the very large amount of positive reviews which can be found online.

I'm blessed with having a good trustworthy mechanic who knows my car well and is not too far from where I live.  Even more so, I'm blessed that he doesn't charge me an arm and a leg, and actually shows credits on my invoices wherever there is a labor overlap.  Never in my life have I experienced that anywhere else.

I certainly won't be driving up to Michigan to have somebody work on my car.  I'll be careful buying anything that has moving parts, always calling the dealer for a good laugh - when they quote me prices, I ask "is that the part number?"

We'll see how it goes.  I'm keeping my old parts, they can go right back on the car for cheap if needed.

Posted by: @pwnzor

The cat pipe is from Magnaflow.  

One of, if not THE highest rated manufacturer of catalytic converters.  I'm not worried about part even a little tiny bit.

It sounds like a few people have had a bad experience with individuals giving them bad service at MWR.  This is in contrast to the very large amount of positive reviews which can be found online.

I'm blessed with having a good trustworthy mechanic who knows my car well and is not too far from where I live.  Even more so, I'm blessed that he doesn't charge me an arm and a leg, and actually shows credits on my invoices wherever there is a labor overlap.  Never in my life have I experienced that anywhere else.

I certainly won't be driving up to Michigan to have somebody work on my car.  I'll be careful buying anything that has moving parts, always calling the dealer for a good laugh - when they quote me prices, I ask "is that the part number?"

We'll see how it goes.  I'm keeping my old parts, they can go right back on the car for cheap if needed.

 

 

 

 

   Its more than a few.  The people that don't have issues are the ones that get parts that they stock from other retailers that they sell which is hard to goof up and they will praise their service or become fan boys  when others complain to defend actual  legitimate issues or just disapear.    I haven't had a problem with MWR which I have spent thousands of dollars on parts at one time or another but they gave me disastrous advise on some torque specs for my flywheel bolts that almost snapped.  Even though the parts I got I did not have a problem with  it doesn't discount the fact that members of our community  had all sorts of problems  throughout  the years, some of whom I know personaly  and the way they handle it by dodging them even after admitting fault when caught in a lie is troubling.  It is logical to think that everyone has disgruntled customers and sometimes things go wrong but there is a typical  pattern going on  for many years that it's not just incompetence/ bad luck but poor workmanship and trying to get away with what they can. 

 We can also say that its the same deal with other speed shops for our platform but we really cant. Twosrus runs a tight ship and so does DDPR as well as SpeedSource and PPE Engineering. They do have complaints but its extremely rare and they do take care of their customers issues in a timely manner when things go wrong.  There was another speed shop (Jay Hass) that did great work initially and then they started to slip and have lots of complaints but even then they had defenders but it didn't last for long as things got worse.

There is no doubt that Magnaflow makes quality exhaust components but even they messed up on the catalytic converters for our car.  I believe they rectified the issue but it doesn't mean they are free from faults compared to the OEM catalytic converter.  Magnaflow cats that are used for weld in applications are also known to blow out prematurely.  

 Im not saying never buy from MWR but I would stay away from their QRP line of parts, the Che stuff as you can get it much cheaper from them directly,  Buy the PPE from PPE and and watch out for  MWR parts that have their name on it.  When you get your order look it over to make sure its not a fake knock off or appears that it was used or damaged. 

 I ordered a 2ZZ intake cam from them in 2016 because they did have the best price but I inspected it under a magnifying glass.  After that I observed more disastrous stories from other members so I decided to just buy from other trusted sources instead even if I pay a few bucks more.   

Please don't take this next statement as me doubting you in the least...

But where are all the negative reviews?  When somebody fkkks me over I post about it.  Like that magillian motorsports guy over in the UK.  Took my money and told me 6 weeks, then 6 months later I still didn't have my parts and started getting mouthy with me, calling me a cunt and other choice descriptions.

In any case, I'll be careful with future purchases because I believe what you're saying has merit.  I'm a big fan of aftermarket parts though, I have to say.  Call me lucky, but I've never had any bad experience with 3rd party stuff for my Honda cars and bikes, Buell, Ducati, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Ford, the list goes on.  This is my first Toyota vehicle, and it's been solid for almost 50k miles.  This cracked flex pipe has been the first thing to break, but the car is 14 years old so I'm not sweating it.  Parts from the dealer are a friggin joke though... they're really proud of themselves at the stealership, I can tell you.  I think everybody who works there must have a yacht with a helicopter pad on it.

Posted by: @petrus

@dev

Stable through the rev range.

Same as before the pulley change.

 

The reason why I asked is Im surprised that it doesn't tapper down from 14.2 when cold  to 13.8 as it gets warmed up like my Spyder  which is generally the normal function of the regulator.  This can vary depending on ambient temps and from car to car but on the whole this is the typical behavior of most. 

Could this cause an issue for sustained use for the battery I don't really know but its thought to be hard on lead acid battery and for Lithium iron 14.2 is good for maximizing the cells during its charing phase but not so much for holding  sustained peak voltage from what I have read when I did my research on this battery technology.  Usually you want it's resting volts lower than that once the battery is fully charged by the alt  but then again I do not know for sure only what I have read for each cells maximum capacity in regards to its longevity.  

Posted by: @pwnzor

Please don't take this next statement as me doubting you in the least...

But where are all the negative reviews?  When somebody fkkks me over I post about it.  Like that magillian motorsports guy over in the UK.  Took my money and told me 6 weeks, then 6 months later I still didn't have my parts and started getting mouthy with me, calling me a cunt and other choice descriptions.

In any case, I'll be careful with future purchases because I believe what you're saying has merit.  I'm a big fan of aftermarket parts though, I have to say.  Call me lucky, but I've never had any bad experience with 3rd party stuff for my Honda cars and bikes, Buell, Ducati, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Ford, the list goes on.  This is my first Toyota vehicle, and it's been solid for almost 50k miles.  This cracked flex pipe has been the first thing to break, but the car is 14 years old so I'm not sweating it.  Parts from the dealer are a friggin joke though... they're really proud of themselves at the stealership, I can tell you.  I think everybody who works there must have a yacht with a helicopter pad on it.

 Its littered on Spyderchat.  Just do a search for my name and MWR and you should see a good number of stories of people that got screwed. Im probably the most vocal about it and at one point I warned someone telling them to check everything from them and even after that they got screwed. What are the chances of that happening.  

 I think it was a few years ago someone asked me where my proof was and  I had some free time on my hands so I linked bombed them with many threads and posts where you could read some heartfelt stories.  

 Keep in mind that not everyone got screwed as that would be blatantly obvious but on the whole its not what a speed shop should be. 

I have a digital voltage gauge that I watch constantly.  I get 14.1 or 14.2 upon startup, and it drops down to 13.4 to 13.7 after it's completely warmed up.

I'll be watching for that after this installation gets done.  

Posted by: @dev

Magnaflow makes quality exhaust components but even they messed up on the catalytic converters for our car.

Example?

Posted by: @pwnzor

I have a digital voltage gauge that I watch constantly.  I get 14.1 or 14.2 upon startup, and it drops down to 13.4 to 13.7 after it's completely warmed up.

I'll be watching for that after this installation gets done.  

 Yes that is the normal operation. I tend to learn something new when these discussions pop up and it had my curiosity on how these solid state voltage regulators work to regulate voltage which is pure genius. I have to hand it to the old engineers for their simplicity.  Apparently the regulator is temperature sensitive and will kick down the voltage once the car warms up. This charging profile is for lead acid batteries so in the cold it ramps up to 14.2-14.5v so it can  break up crystal formation and to maximize the charing and in time kick the juice down to a point where it doesn't boil over the battery and evaporate the water.  Now the question is does the voltage regulator kick up the voltage when you under drive the alternator because it doesn't  have sufficient amps when the demand is greater or is our alternators allowance is much higher to allow for headroom if you were to add additional accessories and deterioration with age to overcome  bad grounds and poor contacts. 

In modern cars they over complicate  the system by having the ECU and sensors regulate the battery voltage. On a previous BMW this system was prone for failure because the sensors would fail and you would need the dealer to reset the system when you changed the battery and you had to pay a little over $100 in labor which is ridiculous.  On the Lexus they just use a traditional alternator which just works without issue because Toyota knows how to stick to reliable proven technology.  

Here is a good read.

https://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/toyota-charging-system-diagnostics/