over steer rant

Yes the factory tuning for a road car is probably the best for safety on the roads for a variety of conditions but it certainly not as safe as a Camry.  

 Cars like the Spyder are road cars first, they are not made for the track but you can race anything and improve on it for better as far as improving the traction but you cant go the other way which is a very interesting topic which is rarely discussed.  

Even in factory trim the Spyder is a compromise car like most sports cars.  

 Most of the aftermarket parts for Spyder make it  tighter from mild tuning to rock hard.  There is nothing on the market to make the car looser for comfort or all season performance, or to turn It into an economy car and this is where people screw this up and will do mental gymnastics to make cheap tires  fit and it will be a compromise to their safely.  Whenever adapting replacement parts it should be at least as good as what the car came with.  The Spyder comes with summer only tires that are matched to the suspension and it's not recommended for lesser traction tires like all seasons.  

This is not theoretical as some have complained about the dangerous nature of the car one in particular who commented his wife was slipping on a mountain road  and was worried that she would end up in a ditch. It turns out he decided to go the cheap tire rout and then complained about the car being unsafe.  

 There is also a lot more to a tire than just traction, there is a level of feel they give you that is also part of the characteristic of performance tires that keep you safe for the stock suspension tuning. 

@dev

Problem Dev is that all but specialist niche cars are bought by the average driver and the cheaper it is the more average the driver. Take the case of the MR2 mk.2. ; the cár was not the real issue, but the mismatch with boy racers being able to afford it.

Our Spyder is an affordable ruabaout and as a result not just driven by  good drivers ánd may will try to economise even further. 

When I bought mine it was on El Cheapo tyres which were additionally mismatched with the worst at the back. It confused the abs!!  For mé it had an upside as I could get to grips with the idiocaries at lower speeds 😎  It would have been a grave mistake to allow a gf behind the wheel though. Also the resident female one day observed; [i]´I think you nééd better tyres; these are dangerous!´[/i] thus taking any argument about the price out of the picture. Enter AD08Rs.  On Enkeis but hey, that is a detail no?!

@petrus

I have been preaching to the economy buffs that Spyder is a cheap car to buy but it's not a cheap car.  Cars like this demand your respect and you cant afford to be house poor with cheap choices especially if you want to performance drive it.  At the very least it should have parts that are equal to what the car came with from the factory which isn't a hard thing to do because tires for this car are not horribly expensive because of the size  but many fail this.  Boy racers are problematic but I often find its a much older generation that decided to get in the game late because its affordable  with cheap parts and  then complain that its dangerous to drive and everyone is out to hit them.  This car needs to be treated like a motorcycle in many respects. 

Posted by: @dev

  This car needs to be treated like a motorcycle in many respects. 

 

TRUTH.

My dad always told me there are three areas where you never want to go cheap when it comes to cars or motorcycles:

#1 - Tires

#2 - Brakes

#3 - Oil

Posted by: @dev

@petrusThis car needs to be treated like a motorcycle in many respects. 

 

Having ráced motorcycles for soem 23 year yearsm it is small wonder I get along well with the MR2 then 😋 

Here a video I think is só good: 

What a wonderful video.  Everyone who is a car person needs to see this.  This is the stuff I have been preaching for years but the hardcore racing people who come in last place give out very bad advise in this area for general owners.  I know this not because I race, I  know this because I read books on the subject from experts that race and they all say the same thing and that is how I built my car. 

Most people don't realize that low profile tires are bad for handling feel. Sure you can rid yourself of compliance but it is the compliance  that will give you enough time to react and make a better car that you can handle.  

Softer suspension or should I say suspension that dampens with the correct timing based on vehicle weight and suspension geometry is the most important thing period. You only get this right with researched dampers and I would say anyone that wants the most value out of their car is not in engine mods its dampers period. For a car like ours  spend all of your money on the best street dampers money can buy from a reputable company. This is one area you cant make work buy turning dials and trying different spring rates as you will be fooling yourself and eventually get wide tires as a bandaid from the lack of traction in an endless cycle of making your car slower so now you are entertaining engine mods. 

 I also like the comment on not needing an LSD.  I certainly don't need one if your limits are so high and not encountering any issues. 

  One thing I will add and that is I haven't done what I preach as I have very low profile tires but the tires are so sticky that it won't break free on the road but when it rains I slow the F down. 

@dev

I háve raced and rallied. Also háve studied automotive technology.

Tyres are part of suspension; the rubber itself, the sidewall and the air chamber. As the design/dimensions are an integral part of the suspension it depends on the whole. What one cán say is that more than marginal changes in tyre dimension whichever way MUST go accompanied by changes in the suspension. I am looking forward to the suspension changes in F1 when those go larger rims/lower section tyres.

As to lsd; our vintage rallye cars are very much alike in engine and transmission. The one has lsd, the other not. Only with very limited grip like gravel, the lsd has a notable advantage. On dry tarmac that would translate to only with overkill of horsepower. On wet tarmac it is .... different.  I think I would prefer it in my MR but not worth the downsides on the dry.

Anyway, the crux for our spyder is that the stiffer = better dogma is mmmost times at best highly suspect 😉 

this all makes sense.

tire beadlocks are banned in some motorsports to prevent people from finding too much grip by reducing air pressure in the tires and thereby "softening" the suspension slightly.

What I generally see also are those that want to see damper dynos, trying to find the hardest springs available and the widest tires that fit a given application without rubbing.  

Sure you can learn a lot from a damper dyno but compared to what and do they really know what it all means. They never compare it to the stock suspension and they tend to build the damper on specs but no road testing and  never looking at the car as a whole and how it is used.  I taken it upon myself to learn how to read a shock dyno and when I finally understood it to some degree I didn't get much from it but could now understand some people were full of crap on how they discuss the terminology to appear all knowing but not having a clue.   

There was a guy that would preach the shock dyno  and dismiss other options only based on that criteria and developed his own sets for sale. I had the opportunity to meet an owner that bought  this suspension and it was crap.  This is due to developing a race suspension for the street.  The owner asked me what I thought but he already knew the answer and said he hated them even for the track and decided to ditch them.  

Lots of phonies out there making aftermarket parts and owners doubling down on bad choices.   

@dev

Tyres have two wonderfully useful ´freebies´.

While the sidewall is linear it the suspension/directionl stbility parts, the rubber and air chamber are not; they are progressive.  Espcially the air chamber is like something for nothing, actually a lot for nothing. You get a progressive spring weighing air... At the prévious turn of the century it was a EUREKA!!! thing.  At the turn of thís one we are supposed to buy that rubber on a rim the  next thing??? and that electronicly controlled springs/dampers are better than what air does automatically for free at airweight?!

It is like carbs and injection. The inherently automatic venturi in a carburetor will álways have an edge over any electronic fuel management system. It is only the additional requirements that have nothing to do with the optimal mixture that make the electronic complications ´superior´.   With suspension however we do not háve the external requirements; air will do nicely. Ah, I am forgeti¡ting marketing; larger rims look better we are told.  Well yes thén we are stuck with less air and ´need´ the crap compensating for that.  Enter electronically controlled hydropneumatics and rubber crimped on to cool rims, all costing umpteen times more than progessive airweight suspension chambers.

I for one support meaty tires with plenty of available sidewall deformation

I have never liked the feeling of a compliant suspension. The unpredictable feeling of body roll or understeer detract from my enjoyment. I could write a paragraph or two commenting or critiquing in either direction, but when you drive hard, the difference between control and heart ache is often confidence. I feel more confident with a stiffer suspension.

Posted by: @ispy

I have never liked the feeling of a compliant suspension. The unpredictable feeling of body roll or understeer detract from my enjoyment. I could write a paragraph or two commenting or critiquing in either direction, but when you drive hard, the difference between control and heart ache is often confidence. I feel more confident with a stiffer suspension.

Excessive body roll is very different especially if it’s not controlled very well as that will give you vagueness. It’s what happens on worn struts where you will have mid corner float and a lack of confidence which is different than a softer set up. But in actuality it’s not a soft setup it’s the right set up for the conditions to maximize traction and drivers feel.   

A hard set up is what you get with cheap coilover sets from China where the dampers are not matched to the spring rates but most of all not match to the cars dynamics.  There is no give to absorb road irregularities so the car skips or under or oversteers early and easily.  Over and under damping will be the issue. 
A stock Spyder can be improved on but just throwing parts that stiffen the car without dialing it in as what most people do will give you a good feeling as stiffness equals more responsiveness  but it can easily fall apart in the rain, stability and overall safety. 

You can still  have a stiff responsive  car and the grip to go with it but it requires careful consideration and adjustability.  

My car gives you a stiff ride that is responsive  but it’s not harsh. In order to make my stiff ride work I have to up my game in better tires that has a higher level of grip.  This is not to say if I go stiffer I can just get better tires as there comes a point where you are just too stiff where you crossed a point of no return and now the suspension is crap for the street. 

@dev

Keyword ´excessive´. More so still when it is a perception.

Body roll also means beneficial weight transfer. Same as when braking; you wánt transfer to the front.

And yes, indeed, body roll and soft suspension are not necessarily linearly linked. Enter anti roll bars. Those keep the body more horizontal at the price of unloading the inner wheels, limiting the wheel travel, generally deminishing traction. Pick your trade off.

Posted by: @petrus

@dev

Keyword ´excessive´. More so still when it is a perception.

Body roll also means beneficial weight transfer. Same as when braking; you wánt transfer to the front.

And yes, indeed, body roll and soft suspension are not necessarily linearly linked. Enter anti roll bars. Those keep the body more horizontal at the price of unloading the inner wheels, limiting the wheel travel, generally deminishing traction. Pick your trade off.

 

 Yes excessive but this can happen if you have tires that have too much grip as well and that is why tires need to be matched to the suspension.    The extreme performance tires I have now have too much grip for the suspension and therefore when I try to push the  limits hard around a tight intersection my car will exhibit  body roll but its fine this way then the other extreme of having the tires slip.  I just hang on for the ride and feel the G forces in my gut as my car leans in which is unreal because Im going at speeds that most cars cant without losing traction.  Sidewall stiffness is also another factor and sadly very few tire manufactures are making stiff side wall tires like the car originally came with and the reason for this is for those that do plus sizing for looks so they don't bend wheels and do not have a harsh ride. 

As far as sway bars go they are often not implemented properly for a street application. The problem I find are those that get cheap coilovers that come with  high spring rates or poor damping and then leave no room for dessert.  Some even go to the extreme of having to removing the rear sway bar to make the car less tail happy which is all wrong.  

  Swaybars for a street application give you the flexibility to have road comfort and dampers that can their job and can prevent body roll.  A good street coilover set should not be rock hard so they can work with the sway bars but its more than that and that is a good adjustable sway bar can be tuned just right to so it can give you more or less oversteer at the limits which is the icing on any suspension system so you don't have to fiddle with spring rates and then screw it up further because you are guessing at this point.  I tuned my four position Whiteline sway bar just right so its more or less neutral but with a touch of oversteer and it works great for my driving style and keeps me safe. For a street application is a great way to enjoy performance without giving up too much comfort.