Crate EV Motor

The price for the performance and range on the conversions is the biggest hold back.

For even the kit I listed you could just do a K24A2 swap and not have to worry about the range on the battery.

Posted by: @wilcomr-s

The price for the performance and range on the conversions is the biggest hold back.

For even the kit I listed you could just do a K24A2 swap and not have to worry about the range on the battery.

 

Yep...  Or the charge time...

Personally I am highly entertained by the idea of adapting a MHEV alternator/generator to the Spyder. The better ones are 48v but Audi also makes some that run on a 12V system. Instant torque at the mash of the pedal. 

https://audi-encounter.com/en/mild-hybrid-technologie

Wiring and batteries aside, my biggest concern is belt slippage. I doubt the standard 6 rib belt could provide the necessary traction to deliver all that power to the crank. I suspect a custom crank pulley and second belt drive for this device would be necessary. On the plus side that would give the ability to customize pulley ratio. 

Hybrids are interesting and work fairly well for economy, or short bursts of performance, but not very well for performance only. 

The energy losses created when converting from the combustion to electrical storage, coupled with the mechanical losses used for the vehicle's motion, means the engine's output power must be split during the drive charge cycles.

Just some things to think about.

Posted by: @neomr2

Hybrids are interesting and work fairly well for economy, or short bursts of performance, but not very well for performance only. 

The energy losses created when converting from the combustion to electrical storage, coupled with the mechanical losses used for the vehicle's motion, means the engine's output power must be split during the drive charge cycles.

Just some things to think about.

Not necessarily. Mclaren, Lexus and a number of manufactures have found advantages with a hybrid system in terms of performance in power output. They can essentially use a smaller eight cylinder motor in conjunction with electric motors  that can mimic some of the advantages of a V12 motor in terms of quality of power output.  Its a mixed bag when it comes to formula 1 but there have been advantages there also depending on the driver, track and set up.  

@dev

This is only true if using the motor/generator as a motor only for an electrical->mechanical output energy adder.  If the electrical energy system needs to be recharged, the energy must come from the engine which means the engines mechanical energy out is reduced.  Every time energy is converted from one flavor to another, losses will occur, its the nature of the beast...

Posted by: @marsrock7

Personally I am highly entertained by the idea of adapting a MHEV alternator/generator to the Spyder. The better ones are 48v but Audi also makes some that run on a 12V system. Instant torque at the mash of the pedal. 

https://audi-encounter.com/en/mild-hybrid-technologie

Wiring and batteries aside, my biggest concern is belt slippage. I doubt the standard 6 rib belt could provide the necessary traction to deliver all that power to the crank. I suspect a custom crank pulley and second belt drive for this device would be necessary. On the plus side that would give the ability to customize pulley ratio. 

 I think this can happen but I think its better to have it on the transmission side. It might be easier and more reliable to modify the transmission with an external motor that can deliver programed power output to take up the slack.   It would be very challenging considering the weight penalty for the level of power output which can mess up the handling. 

Posted by: @neomr2

@dev

This is only true if using the motor/generator as a motor only for an electrical->mechanical output energy adder.  If the electrical energy system needs to be recharged, the energy must come from the engine which means the engines mechanical energy out is reduced.  Every time energy is converted from one flavor to another, losses will occur, its the nature of the beast...

Are you mentioning the differences between two hybrid systems.  A traditional hybrid system gets its power from the engine though its power output converted and stored as electrical energy as well as  regenerative braking/coasting. The stored power is then used to supplement power where the engine is lacking in its power band for a performance application rather than one of economy.  They have also found this supplement power very beneficial for turbocharged vehicles to reduce the effects of lag.  The overall output although takes energy it can still have a major performance advantage depending on the application.  The problem comes from added weight and complexity but there are advantages.  

There is no free lunch however there are areas where potential is being wasted that can be captured and converted to be used for power. 

@dev

I am keeping it simple. 

The engine's mechanical power is reduced when recharging the batteries and it is reduced by more than the amount of energy added by the motor due to the losses in the in the various conversion processes.

If the electrical system is recharged by a separate recharging station as part of the design, instead of the by the engine, then the additional energy added by the motor will improve performance.

There is no way the engine can have an overall improved performance if it has to supply energy to an additional energy system.

Just the facts of Physics...

Posted by: @neomr2

@dev

I am keeping it simple. 

The engine's mechanical power is reduced when recharging the batteries and it is reduced by more than the amount of energy added by the motor due to the losses in the in the various conversion processes.

If the electrical system is recharged by a separate recharging station as part of the design, instead of the by the engine, then the additional energy added by the motor will improve performance.

There is no way the engine can have an overall improved performance if it has to supply energy to an additional energy system.

Just the facts of Physics...

 Yes there are losses  but you are forgetting regenerative braking, coasting where the engine is not using power or as much power and regeneration the batteries for an overall net effect. This is what gives hybrid performance cars an advantage.  There is also an advantage with storing the power and delivering it during the acceleration process where it is most needed.   

 If there was no advantage and its was counterintuitive  to power that would mean that supercars are doing it for show and there are no advantages.  It can be argued that the KERS system in formula one might be due to the novelty in the racing and rules but at one point they gave the teams the option when building their cars and some team kept the KERS and had a clear advantage.  

Acceleration:

- both the gas engine and electric motor are outputting power and so accel will be better

coasting:

- gas engine outputs power, hybrid motor uses some of the energy to recharge (similar to an alternator) if the hybrid system is designed correctly, it can disengage as well to just trickle charge with existing electrical systems that gas powered cars have

decel:

- gas engine outputs power but since the power can't be fed into going faster, it's fed into the hybrid motor generator which charges up much faster under decel. a gas engine's power is basically wasted during decel without an energy recovery/scavenging system

- brakes don't need to work as hard

Those three cases show no performance disadvantage. the only real performance disadvantage is weight. and mechanical disadvantage is complexity (more parts that can break)

there's a reason why a hybrid can get 50-60mpg vs a same-displacement gas-only car getting 30-40: it's recovering and scavenging waste energy that the engine outputs during scenarios that an engine is still running but isn't being used to change velocity. this is the physics. sure you won't get anywhere near 100% of the energy back with hybrid energy recovery, but recovering 50% (with a hybrid system) is better than recovering 0% (without a hybrid system).

this all being said, i'd like to have a hybrid control module and battery system installed into a spyder for front wheel motors.  AWD without a transmission to the front axles. the control logic goes:

output power when the clutch is not depressed and the gas pedal is being pressed greater than 1/3 travel

slowly recharge power when clutch is not depressed and the gas pedal is being pressed less than 1/3 of travel

aggressively recharge power when the brake is being pressed

disengage and coast when clutch is depressed and no other pedals are being pressed

Most of these new flagship supercars are taking advantage of this technology to give their cars clear advantages over larger displacement engines. 

Here is an interesting read on KERS which is similar to typical hybrid systems but the main difference is the application of power by the driver like a boost button.  

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2015/ph240/sarkar1/

 I read in the past about ten years ago they wanted to implement a version of  Kers  in BMWs where the driver can use it as a boost button. That would be cool.  

Take a look at what Lamborghini  is doing.  Super capacitors. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billroberson/2019/09/06/what-are-supercapacitors-and-what-are-they-doing-in-lamborghinis-new-sin-supercar/#3fc2928f3bb9

I think what they did looks ridiculous on paper having a 34 horsepower electric motor, however it shows what can be done with the technology of maximizing performance and cutting out the weight of typical hybrid supercars.   Although it is only 34 horsepower one should ask why they just didn't tune the car for  34 more horsepower without the electrical motor when the car makes almost 800hp.  

 I think something like this would work well for the Spyder and be inline with keeping the weight down.  

@dev

Regeneration is very helpful in improving efficiency when using the motor as a generator, but the reality is every conversion process still has added losses. 

Regeneration does provide some energy back to the battery during deceleration instead of having all of the losses occur as heat losses in the braking system.

But the engine will still have to provide more energy back to the electrical system for a full charge, than it used.

EDIT:  Supercapacitors are the future if the engineers can improve the dielectric technology to reduce stray resistance and stray inductance values, and somehow figure out how to make an accidental discharge safe, and if a reliable charging system that can handle the high impulse currents can be figured out.

Again, my comments are related to overall improved performance -> acceleration/braking/handling/etc... and this is where the energy transfer falls short if the engine provides all of the conversion transfer.

Posted by: @neomr2

@dev

Regeneration is very helpful in improving efficiency when using the motor as a generator, but the reality is every conversion process still has added losses. 

Regeneration does provide some energy back to the battery during deceleration instead of having all of the losses occur as heat losses in the braking system.

But the engine will still have to provide more energy back to the electrical system for a full charge, than it used.

 Of course there are losses in the regenerative process but it is outweighed by the overall net effect of the entire system and how it is implemented and controlled where it can recapture wasted energy that would be lost to friction and heat in a dynamic process as Referendum alluded to.  This added power is used to supplement a gas engines with more power or programed to  deliver consistent power throughout the power band or in the case of turbo lag.   

 It is the same with a lot of other processes in nature like for example, a typical turbo charged engine that has to use low compression pistons to avoid detonation but the overall net effect is more power because you can run more boost.  

 The engine will supply energy back to the system and maybe it rations it off depending on the demand  but for the kind of driving the car does the system still has an overall advantage.  This  advantage is clear in motorsports and with the latest Supercars.   

 In order to get past these notions we have to come to some conclusions.  

Do you think the flagship supercars that are employing hybrid power are only doing it  for the novelty/ efficiency of going green?