Anyone else into vinyl?

Brothers in Arms is the quintessential vinyl record along with Dark Side of the Moon. 

Im not into records however I’m love my Marantz circuit preamp I picked up last year which I tube rolled with some 1960 vintage Telefunken tubes.

I also re cap my vintage speakers and they blew away new speakers that I auditioned at a hifi audio shop.  Like anything audio there is a lot of hype out there that doesn’t equal better.  I was able to get a great sound quality budget subwoofer from parts express that was on par with a JL sub that costs 20 times what I paid, just not as powerful but who cares.

Oooo yes DSOTM, that's also what I need. Thanks for the reminder. I'm brainstorming the bare essentials right now. 

I don't think vinyl sounds as good as digital. It sounds warm and pleasant, but not better. Never trust those pesky audiophiles. I would love a quality, budget RCA amp for my PC setup. The Audioengine A5+ Wireless sound AMAZING but they lack bass at lower volumes, a classic speaker problem overcome with a subwoofer. Mind sharing some details on your sub? 

I will let you know tomorrow along with my simplified take on how to choose components and tuning. There are a lot of hidden cheats for those like us that want value  over hype.   

For now look into adding even order harmonics on the cheap.  This will get you that analog sound that you crave where you can stop analyzing the music and just be immersed in emotional response .  

I'm honestly a headphone kinda guy, since even houses here are pushed against each other so loud music is rarely acceptable. But I would like some more bass at low volumes from my Audioengine A5+ speakers. I'll look into it though!

Im going to give you a few simple cheats to better sound. There is much more but I don't want to overwhelm you. 

First what is better sound realistically for most peoples needs.  

It is sound that sounds great at lower volumes. It is a richness of sound and the way you know you got it right is when you are holding a conversation with a guest and he comments on how rich your music system sounds. The guy that has to turn it up loud to sound good has a bad sound system and missed the boat entirely.

How do we get this richness of sound at lower volumes.  

We get this in two ways.  Equalization and even order harmonics from a tube source. 

What they found out in recent years is hybrid amps that use a tube preamp paired with a solid state amp on the back end generally ends up being the best of both worlds.  You are essentially giving your music the right kind of dirty to make it sound fuller and pleasing to the ears. Most people think tubes dull the sound and that is complete bull  but it is true if you choose the wrong tubes. Some tubes can play bright and perceivably accurate  than transistor circuits even though they don't reflect it on paper.  For many years they have tried to mimic the fullness of tubes by tweaking solid state amps and adding tricks like the loudness buttons to boost bass and treble at lower listening levels and they work ok but its not the same thing. 

So how do we add the tube sound on the cheap. 

Get this pre amp. 

https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Vacuum-Preamplifier-Stereo-Control/dp/B078D6X796/ref=sr_1_31?keywords=tube+preamp&qid=1569076013&sr=8-31#customerReviews

Then I would tube roll it with these GE tubes.

https://www.amazon.com/Riverstone-Audio-Matched-Fully-Tested-Platinum/dp/B01BFJDTW0/ref=sr_1_28?keywords=tube+preamp&qid=1569076013&sr=8-28

For a subwoofer. Get this. Probably the best value in Subwoofers I have come across. 

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-628?gclid=Cj0KCQjwlJfsBRDUARIsAIDHsWr4QzzYhtA7vyHDNjtZL9_cdPXDPhsOYt7Q4fBdLqtlxLu5GbgqrjgaAhAdEALw_wcB

This sub is not loud and you don't want loud booming bass. What this sub is, is musical. Most musical subs are sealed and cost a fortune because they need better components and a much stronger amp. This sub is not sealed so it can take advantage of the lower power amp but this particular sub defies convention because its very musical.  A musical sub is suppose to fill in missing notes and accentuate your main speakers.  The way you know you got it right is if your audience doesn't know you have a sub and cant believe how your small speakers can pump out rich bass.  It also adds to the vocals and highs.  

If you want a great audiophile record. 

Get Steelydan aja

Its probably the most perfect studio album recording that has lots of grove depth composed by some of the best session artists that were on top of their game musically. The recording is unreal and the lyrics are sardonic.  

 I don't know nuttin' 'bout amps and tubes, but I loves me some  Steely Dan,  now!  I was fortunate to see them in concert a few years back.  Besides Walter Becker and Donald Fagen that night,  Leland Sklar was also playing with them that night.  It was quite the treat and at a smaller venue, to boot!  I was saddened to hear when Walter Becker passed away.   Since then I have not been able to do it without my fez on.

I'm actually not entirely sure what the purpose of a preamp is. Now, I get the purpose of a phono preamp as they're designed for turntables. But what you linked is not a phono premp and can't be connected to a turntable? I'm more familiar with the DAC/amp world. 

On the same topic, you recommend Nobsound, so how do you feel about the Little Bear phono preamp? I had my eye on it but it's unfortunate that it has no adjustment knobs like the one you linked. https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Little-Bear-Turntable-Pre-Amplifier/dp/B075YQM28P

On your tube recommendation, why those particular tubes? I love recommendations but want to make sure I'm getting what is my preference, not someone elses. 

The sub definitely looks nice. I had my eye on the Audioengine S8, since it would pair nicely with the Audioengine A5+ Wireless at my desk. They're interesting because they use a Class AB analog amp instead of the digital amps more common on powered bookshelf speakers. I'm a big fan of these things. Do I feel those speakers need a sub? Absolutely not. They vibrate my ribs at high volumes. But a little more low end at quieter volumes would simply be nice. When I want ridiculous bass, I fire up the Devialet Phantom Silvers. 

I've never heard Steely Dan before, I'll give it a listen. I'm about to bid on some used Dire Straits LPs. And most likely picking up some matte black Audioengine A2 speakers for the turntable setup.

Posted by: @haloruler64

I'm actually not entirely sure what the purpose of a preamp is. Now, I get the purpose of a phono preamp as they're designed for turntables. But what you linked is not a phono premp and can't be connected to a turntable? I'm more familiar with the DAC/amp world. 

On the same topic, you recommend Nobsound, so how do you feel about the Little Bear phono preamp? I had my eye on it but it's unfortunate that it has no adjustment knobs like the one you linked. https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Little-Bear-Turntable-Pre-Amplifier/dp/B075YQM28P

On your tube recommendation, why those particular tubes? I love recommendations but want to make sure I'm getting what is my preference, not someone elses. 

The sub definitely looks nice. I had my eye on the Audioengine S8, since it would pair nicely with the Audioengine A5+ Wireless at my desk. They're interesting because they use a Class AB analog amp instead of the digital amps more common on powered bookshelf speakers. I'm a big fan of these things. Do I feel those speakers need a sub? Absolutely not. They vibrate my ribs at high volumes. But a little more low end at quieter volumes would simply be nice. When I want ridiculous bass, I fire up the Devialet Phantom Silvers. 

I've never heard Steely Dan before, I'll give it a listen. I'm about to bid on some used Dire Straits LPs. And most likely picking up some matte black Audioengine A2 speakers for the turntable setup.

The purpose of the preamp is many but the primary reason for a preamp is to control the amp as far as volume. The secondary reason for a preamp is for a switching junction for many components and the last reason is control some basic EQ functions like balance, bass, treble and loudness circuits on some preamps. 

Most integrated receivers have a preamp built into the circuit. Some like my NAD receiver has the ability to bypass the internal preamp in favor of a better pre-amp that has better discrete components and one that is isolated from the bad effects of sharing or being in close proximity of the amp circuits.  Most integrated receivers have lousy preamps because its a budgeted thing of getting everything in one package for the home consumer. 

The preamp can amplify a source to give the amp a higher input voltage  and it can also enhance the source my modifying the signal in the case of the tube preamp by giving it that tube sound by adding even order distortions and microphonic pick up from the tube and feeding that back into the signal as a kind of reverb.  This reverb you don't actually notice as reverb but its there and supposedly pleasing to the sound.  A transistor amp adds odd order harmonics and surpasses even order harmonics and is why its not as pleasing.  It is not fully understood but what I think is happening by adding a tube preamp is taming the bad qualities of the transistor amp and enhancing the tube sound some what artificially from the original source but it works.  

We are basically cheating to some degree to get that tube sound from an integrated amp and from a technical standpoint you are not supposed to do it that way by having more than two paths of amplification of the signal because it can cause degradation in the signal path however the end result is much better sounding and what ever degradation can not be perceived so it is outweighed by the benefits. Its the latest thing  in the last 10 years as hybrid amps are becoming popular in high fi as well as for instruments.  The cost of a tube amp and the maintenance can be enormous not to mention the warm up times make it inconvenient and not practical. 

What do tubes sound like.  It depends on the tubes used as there are trade offs but on the whole there is so much more depth in the sound which is not lost at lower volumes. If your system is set up right it can creep up on you and give you chills.  What I notice most is horns have more depth and vocals have breathing. This tricks my brain to feeling the music rather than just listing to it which makes for a immersive meditative experience.  

On to your next question. 

The little bear would be a great choice however it depends on your turntable. Does your turntable have line outputs that have been amplified or does it require a phono input stage to amplify the signal.   If the turntable is not  amplified internally than this would be a great upgrade.   If it is then the nobsound would be the way to go.  I like the fact that the nobsound has a volume control so you can increase the signal and match it to the preamp that is in your speakers. Sometimes increasing the gain of source volume before amplification can increase the sound quality for your listening level unto a point.   

As to my recommendation of replacing the tubes in favor of the GE tubes is because most of these Chinese tubes they come with are crap. They do this because the Chinese cant make good tubes as they try to replicate old designs that are known for sound quality.  The GE tubes will improve the sound quality a lot. They sound cleaner and better balanced. It transforms these cheap Chinese copied circuits into a much higher quality pre amp that could cost 20 times the amount.  Because tubes are gaining in popularity there are companies trying to reproduce tubes of the past and although they can sound nice they just don't have that magic quality. It is believed that the knowhow of the manufacturing process is lost.  Fortunately there is plenty of old stock tubes floating around that are commanding high prices.  

As to your question about subwoofers its upto you and only you know what works for your room.  I have both class A/B and Class D subs and there is not much difference in sound quality because subs don't benefit from A A/B.  The advantage with class D on the other hand can give you more power to drive the sub which can make it better value and run cooler.   The most important thing about the sub for music is primarily not to bring the sub sound.  If you can localize the sub and hear sub sounds you are doing it wrong.  A sub is a kind of fill that makes your main speakers sound fuller. It fills in missing notes and enhances others like the kick/ tom drums and lower vocals ranges. Above all it cant be too prominent which is the problem with 96% of subs on the market. Only a few companies still make musical subs.  The Dayton I listed is every bit musical and that is why most high fi fanatics speak highly of this subwoofer for what it can do at its price point.  

Steely Dan is a master piece of perfection. It might take some time to warm up to it because its very different than anything else.   As the years pass and people become aware of what was good  Steely Dan will come out on top like the Mozart of its time. 

@haloruler64

From a technical standpoint, a pre-amp is a low noise, wide-bandwidth, impedance matching device.  Amplifiers have a gain-bandwidth limitation that requires multiple low gain amplification stages to achieve wide bandwidth and the pre-amp fits this need by adding these additional low noise amplifier stages.  Another critical requirement when connecting devices is to match the impedance of the output to input stages for maximum signal power transfer.

The analog tube amplifiers are non-linear, voltage controlled devices, typically operated class A or AB in linear mode, that produce a sound that older people like since that is what they grew up with.  These amplifier devices work very well with other linear amplifiers.

Digital amplifiers and digital music work with sampled numerical values that represent the audio signal at fixed intervals of time.  These signals are converted back into analog signals for the speakers/headset by using additional output stage filtering to smooth the signal out and remove some of the noise generated by the output signal voltage steps.

Oh, and Steely Dan is awesome...

EDIT:  Check out Alan Parsons Project too...

😎

Posted by: @uncle-mush

 I don't know nuttin' 'bout amps and tubes, but I loves me some  Steely Dan,  now!  I was fortunate to see them in concert a few years back.  Besides Walter Becker and Donald Fagen that night,  Leland Sklar was also playing with them that night.  It was quite the treat and at a smaller venue, to boot!  I was saddened to hear when Walter Becker passed away.   Since then I have not been able to do it without my fez on.

You might like this. 

Gotcha, thank you to both of you! I still don't quite get why you need a preamp and an amp when an amp will do the job. Do all amps have a preamp stage then? 

My turntable has no phono preamp, I'm running it through a Fluance PA10. I bought it because it was fairly inexpensive and the most simple looking box available. Bad reason to buy it? Yeah, but I'm going for a certain look in my living room that has to be clean. Raw audio quality isn't #1 here, because it's not my main music listening experience. 

So your recommendation would be Fluance phono preamp > preamp > amp inside powered speakers? I would love to do it from an audio point of view but that makes the setup more complex. Which is why I was curious if I should cut out theNobsound preamp AND the Fluance phono preamp and just go with that Nobsound Little Bear phono preamp that has the tubes but no EQ adjustment (which would be nice, frankly). 

And thank you again about your thoughts on the sub. I'd love a sub, not my priority right now but I'd love one soon. 

Oh also today I picked up Dire Strait's self titled album and Brothers in Arms LPs. Was about time.

You don't normally need a pre-amp for most component configurations, but some input devices produce very low output signal levels and/or their output impedance doesn't match the next stage correctly.  For either of these cases, a pre-amp would be recommended.  So, a quick check of the device specifications that you are going to connect together would be a good idea - this will tell you if you need an intermediary stage added.

An equalizer lets you fine tune bands of audio frequencies by filtering select input frequency ranges and then amplifying or attenuating these frequency bands to enhance or match the crossover frequency components within the speakers.

Posted by: @haloruler64

Gotcha, thank you to both of you! I still don't quite get why you need a preamp and an amp when an amp will do the job. Do all amps have a preamp stage then? 

My turntable has no phono preamp, I'm running it through a Fluance PA10. I bought it because it was fairly inexpensive and the most simple looking box available. Bad reason to buy it? Yeah, but I'm going for a certain look in my living room that has to be clean. Raw audio quality isn't #1 here, because it's not my main music listening experience. 

So your recommendation would be Fluance phono preamp > preamp > amp inside powered speakers? I would love to do it from an audio point of view but that makes the setup more complex. Which is why I was curious if I should cut out theNobsound preamp AND the Fluance phono preamp and just go with that Nobsound Little Bear phono preamp that has the tubes but no EQ adjustment (which would be nice, frankly). 

And thank you again about your thoughts on the sub. I'd love a sub, not my priority right now but I'd love one soon. 

If you are happy with the way your system sounds then don’t change a thing.  What matters is your satisfaction if aesthetics is more important to you. 

Most consumer amps or receivers have preamp circuits built into them because they are budgeted and convenient. High end audio generally favors a separate preamp that doesn’t share the same circuit and power supply as the amp and have better components that can make all the difference in sound quality however if they are not matched well it won't and that is why specs are important for good amp/ preamp matching as well as auditioning equipment. 

The reason why I mentioned going with another preamp is mainly for a taste of getting the tube sound  inexpensively. The Chinese in the last few years have copied some classic tube circuit designs and they have also copied some sold state designs as well. They used the audio community support for  feedback from users so they would be perfected. 

They have unleashed them on the market at ridiculous prices and it has been all the rage in the audio world because you can level up cheap. The tube done right can be a nice holographic experience which can enhance your listening enjoyment especially at low volumes. 

You have to keep in mind that not all tube stuff is good as with solid state and it depends. What I have recommended is something similar that I have tested which is one of the good designs  that impressed me so much that I upgraded to a better pre-amp that is a copy of the Marantz 7 circuit that was well made but ridiculously cheap compared to how much it would cost me if I were to buy the real one. The Chinese have certainly figured out a way to change the game to give budgeted audiophiles a leg up.