2AR-FE swap for the Spyder

Powertrain weight

These are weights obtained by Gouky in the SC thread page #10.
1zzfe + c56 weight *minus clutch disk and pressure plate (+~12lbs) plus alternator =318lbs

2arfe + eb60 (2011+ Scion TC) weight plus alternator and a couple engine mounts=410lbs

Wiki motors claims 2arfe is 149 kg dry

And it claims the 1zzfe at 135 kg dry

This would indicated the eb60 is a heavy component of the swap.

Axles

This information is found on: https://www.frankensteinmotorworks.com/MKIII/2ARSwap/documentation/Toyota%202AR%20Instalation%20guide%20for%20MKIII%20Spyder%20(axle%20excerpt).pdf

2001-2005 Toyota Rav4 FWD, Front Left
Toyota Part Number: 43420-42070

2001-2005 Toyota Rav4 FWD, Front Right
Toyota Part Number: 43410-42080

2001-2005 Toyota Rav4 AWD, Front Left
Toyota Part Number: 43420-42120

Shift Linkage

These are necessary components to the swap because the Scion and Camry integrate a reverse lock out on their respective shift levers. The reverse lockout part also creates a noticeable separation between 1-2 shift gate and reverse for factory driveability. The bell crank adapter, spherical bearings and adjustable linkage rods ensure the joystick-like shifter of the spyder will adapt from the factory cables back to the transmission.

This information is found at:

@ ~17:30

Posted by: chrioboy2

After the SC thread took off I lost track of a few of the essential details for this swap.

Here are a few tidbits of information I wish someone could help me with:

-Total weight of powertrain compared to 1zz

The 2AR-FE adds about 90lbs if you use it unopened. For some applications the balance shafts could be removed to save a few more lbs and remove more rotating mass.

-Details on most costly swap items (shift linkage, ecu/electronics adapter, header)

I'm not sure what details you're wanting but I'd be happy to answer your questions.

-Estimates on market availability for eb60 (I've seen them listed as scion Tc transmission)

The EB60 is 2011+ Scion TC only transmission. This is the easiest one to use but it has somewhat shorter top gears than the EB62 that came in the 2010-2011 camry. If you want the taller gears you can use the EB62 and switch out the gate and crossgate levers for the EB60 levers or you can swap in the EB62's 6th gear into the EB60. But honestly i would not worry about that too much, the EB60's gearing works well as-is.

-Power band information for stock engine

I took some dyno charts and i put them all together. these aren't the limits of any of these three engines but rather just header + intake kind of numbers:

Posted by: chrioboy2

Wiki motors claims 2azfe is 305kg dry

And it claims the 1zzfe at 300kg

This would indicated the eb60 is a heavy component of the swap.

you accidentally looked up the 2az-fe. the 2ar-fe according to toyota's documentation is 330lbs empty so the weight difference is in both items. the EB60 is significantly beefier than the stock transmission.

Thanks Marc! slowly updating that second post. I really like the torque curve of the 2AR maybe we can get a import of that dyno. Would removing the balance shafts just add chassis vibration or would it significantly lower the life span of the engine?

The axle info you have posted is not quite right, here's the document that talks about all of that: https://www.frankensteinmotorworks.com/MKIII/2ARSwap/documentation/Toyota%202AR%20Instalation%20guide%20for%20MKIII%20Spyder%20(axle%20excerpt).pdf

Also, 0:43 to 16:30 of the first video shows the assembly of the axles:

(also in this video is the transmission modification)

I don't have the Dyno in a spreadsheet format but the dyno i pulled the line from is here, this one has better lines to pull the data from:

As for pulling the balance shafts, i only know of one motor that has them pulled. That is Papadakis' race car but he rebuilds the engine every season and he's pushing 1100hp from it so it's hardly a valid comparison point. I intend to do it on my own car soon to judge the results. In generic terms, pulling the balance shafts results in a bit more vibration at idle but not usually noticeable at any other RPM and usually does not result in accelerated wear. Keep in mind, many other engines out there don't use balance shafts. V6 engines are not balanced, nor are V8's but since they have more firing events per second at a given RPM they don't get below that critical RPM where you can really feel the imbalance. It's really mostly an NVH (noise vibration and harshness) thing because smoothness at idle is something that people look at when they are determining how luxurious a car is to them.

Also, the vibration is generally made worse when poly bushings are used but my mount kit reuses three stock rubber mounts (left, right and rear) and the front mount is a very stiff rubber mount but not as stiff as some poly mounts. that front mount being stiff is unfortunately required for the A/C compressor to maintain clearance to the frame rail since it is rather close.

I have a transmission sitting outside of the chassis right now, I'll try to remember to toss it on a scale tonight to get an individual weight. I also have a stripped engine (no intake or exhaust) but otherwise complete with oil and some coolant.

On the topic of the EB60, has any found the torque limits of that transmission yet? I've heard good things about the boost-friendliness of a 2ar (lots of 300whp turbo builds on stock engines) but was curious as to whether the transmission is as capable.

There's no solid number on the max torque. some of the scion guys say they start having issues at 450hp and with this motor's general torque curve shape that is likely at about 6000 so that would be a limit of about 400lb*ft. 

The other thing we know is that Aisin rates this as "Medium Torque Capacity FWD 6-speed Manual Transmission" but they don't give any number beyond that. 

I did do an analysis on the parts back in 2011: https://www.mr2oc.com/188-v6-mr2-forum/424482-2010-camry-6-speed-transmission-eb62-internal-pics-information.html The conclusion i came to in that post i think is still valid: "overall, I feel that this EB62 transmission is much stronger than I originally thought. I think i'd feel good about putting it behind a 2GR-FE monster, especially if it did not see the drag strip. though i am concerned for how far 3rd and 4th gear are from any supporting bearings."

I don't think that it is quite as strong as the E153 but with all the abuse I've thrown at one of these i feel that it has synchros that are an order of magnitude or more in durability. 

Searching for broken ones on the internet yields surprisingly few results which accounts for something.

I updated the second post once again. Thanks for the active responses. I hope you don't mind me starting this thread, I am using it to create a concise source of information that other folks may seek out to answer their questions. As of right now, I've decided to to sell my 2zz parts hoard and am weighing the options of the 2ar versus a 5 psi legacy gt turbo. I'll begin watching your swap videos to get a feel for the other sections (electronics, linkage). Thanks again!

You're more than welcome to post this. And honestly, I could not stop you even if i wanted to but the more info that gets out there about these the better. I'm just going to do my best to make sure the information is true as much as possible. I also hope i can push you towards the 2AR instead of the subi.

As for the videos, the electronics work is all done in the 2nd video:

The only thing missing is bolting in the circuit board into the old ECU case and plugging in connectors. That video is the extent of the wiring work that is necessary so i hope I've made it simple enough 🙂

The linkage will not be in the next video part 3(chassis mods and engine install) but it will be in part 4(linkage and plumbing). Part 5 will be interior work and other minor finishing touches. 

The chassis prep and engine hanging video is now up:

I see you've got a link into one of my other videos, i'm not sure if there's anything in there that you may want to link into directly.

..

Absolutely, cars do not need to die when their powertrain dies. An engine swap is a great way to continue to enjoy the car.

As for which swap is more expensive, if you’re good at fabricating, the 2GR or 2AR swap can both be a very similar price but let me work out the prices that are valid today (august 2019) for the three methods you can use to do either swap.

1. 2ar swap using my swap kit
   • 2ar-fe engine with harness: $250-350 (available at the pick n’ pull all day long)
   • EB60 transmission: $175-1100 (very rare at the pick n’ pull but available or e-bay available for about $1000
   • EB60 shift linkage kit: $442
   • Axles: $260 using my swap documentation
   • Transmission & motor mounts: $543
   • Thermostat conversion housing & coolant lines: $210
   • Accessory belt: $18
   • Dip stick: $free (combine 1zz & 2ar dip sticks to make what you need, easy to DIY)
   • DBW pedal: $25
   • DBW pedal firewall adapter: $66
   • Header: $785
   • B-pipe: $200 (needs to be done locally at exhaust shop, no part currently available)
   • A/C delete idler: $89 (actual A/C solution to come)
   • ECU: $380 +$70 core
   • ECU brackets: $36
   • Air intake pipe: $30 (rubber pipe from camry 2ar-fe application)
   • MAF pipe, bracket & filter: $299
   • Lightweight Flywheel: $285
   • Organic clutch: $365
   • Clutch line: $20 (get this done locally or at one of the many online custom hose suppliers)
   • Fuel line parts: $55 (assuming earl’s vapor guard hose + fittings)
   • Electrical wiring kit: $200 (other than this kit, follow instructions provided in video or paper form to repin a few wires a and crimp 7 wires) (+$100 to make coolant gauge, alt light and oil pressure light work)
   • Firewall modifications, just light mods with a hammer, easy to do and well documented. Will not affect soft top operation.

Total is $4800 at the bottom all the way to $5950 if you don’t search hard for the trans, it’s up to you to determine the value of your time.

Labor is one weekend to do the whole swap after doing the pre-requisite stuff before the car comes apart (axles, trans mod & engine harness repin/crimps) so there’s almost no downtime.

Also, a full install video series is available and I’m more than happy to answer any questions:

2. 2gr swap using as much of my 2ar-fe swap kit as is convenient
   • 2gr-fe engine: $250-2500 (just barely starting to be available at pick & pulls but still very rare, similar to the EB60 trans in availability)
   • 2gr-fe harness: $0-400 (many different applications and some are harder to wire than others so you may want to buy another harness to make your life easier than what came with the engine you pulled)
   • EB60 transmission: $175-1100 (very rare at the pick n’ pull but available or e-bay available for about $1000
   • EB60 shift linkage kit: $442
   • Axles: $260 using my swap documentation
   • Transmission mounts: $385
   • motor mounts: this needs to be fabricated yourself
   • coolant lines: DIY
   • Accessory belt: $18
   • Dip stick: DIY, no easy solution
   • DBW pedal: $25
   • DBW pedal firewall adapter: $66
   • Headers: you’ll need to make custom headers here because the room in the front of the motor is very tight if you don’t cut the frame rail
   • y-pipe: custom part, tight quarters work here to avoid losing ground clearance
   • ECU: $380 +$170 core
   • ECU brackets: $36
   • Air intake pipe: DIY, should not be too hard
   • MAF pipe, bracket & filter: $299
   • Lightweight Flywheel: $320
   • Organic clutch: $365
   • Clutch line: $20 (get this done locally or at one of the many online custom hose suppliers)
   • Fuel line parts: $55 (assuming earl’s vapor guard hose + fittings)
   • Electrical wiring kit: $200 (You can start with my kit, it’ll get you quite a bit of the way there but you’re on your own for the work on the engine harness. The rav4 harness should be similar enough to the 2ar to be able to use a fair bit of my documentation) (+$100 to make coolant gauge, alt light and oil pressure light work)
   • Firewall needs to be cut generously to move it forward about 2” at the front valve cover. Not a terrible plan since you need access to that area to service the V6 anyways.

So the bottom dollar here is $3466 but unlike the 2AR-FE, there’s a *BUNCH* of parts to do yourself and if you can do those for the 2GR you could also do them on the 2AR and save money there also. If you can fabricate this swap can be pretty much the exact same price as the 2ar so for that kind of person there is very little incentive to go to the 2ar-fe.

Like most swaps, there is very little documentation available for this one but I can certainly answer many of your questions over e-mail and the forums.

3. 2gr swap using DDPR’s parts
   • 2gr-fe engine: $250-2500 (just barely starting to be available at pick & pulls but still very rare, similar to the EB60 trans in availability)
   • 2gr-fe harness: $0-400 (many different applications and some are harder to wire than others so you may want to buy another harness to make your life easier than what came with the engine you pulled)
   • E153 transmission: $1000+$500 in parts to rebuild
   • shift linkage kit: $DIY
   • Axles: $driveshaft shop, $990
   • Transmission & motor mounts, including custom crossmember to set engine further back: $3000
   • coolant lines: DIY
   • Accessory belt: $18
   • Dip stick: DIY, no easy solution
   • DBW pedal: $25
   • DBW pedal firewall adapter: $66
   • Headers: $699 my MKII headers fit with DDPR’s custom crossmember kit.
   • y-pipe: custom part, tight quarters work here to avoid losing ground clearance
   • ECU: $380 +$170 core
   • ECU brackets: $36
   • Air intake pipe: DIY, should not be too hard
   • MAF pipe, bracket & filter: $299
   • Lightweight Flywheel: $320
   • Organic clutch: $365
   • Clutch line: $20 (get this done locally or at one of the many online custom hose suppliers)
   • Fuel line parts: $55 (assuming earl’s vapor guard hose + fittings)
   • Electrical wiring kit: $200 (You can start with my kit, it’ll get you quite a bit of the way there but you’re on your own for the work on the engine harness. The rav4 harness should be similar enough to the 2ar to be able to use a fair bit of my documentation) (+$100 to make coolant gauge, alt light and oil pressure light work)
   • Firewall should not need any modifications to fit engine but an access panel for the front plugs would be very wise since this motor is known to blow coils semi regularly.

So the bottom dollar on this one is $8393 and there’s a *BUNCH* of parts to do yourself even after spending all that money.

Like most swaps, there is very little documentation available for this one but I can certainly answer many of your questions over e-mail and the forums.

In the end, what swap is right for you is a very variable answer. What I’ve done by making all the parts available is that nothing with nickel and dime you to death, you know exactly what you’re spending up front. The 2^nd take away should be that the cost of the engine is really only a tiny fraction of the cost of this swap. I’d like to do the K20/k24 breakdown of the swap but I don’t know all the parts availability there. If someone can put that in the above format here that would be awesome.

...

Posted by: @nottamiata

@marc

Thank you for taking time to list that out. Yes, i took away the takeaway by about the time i got to item 5 of the first list. Lots of 4, 5, and $700 "nickels and dimes".

But, The Frog is immortal, so that's how it shall be. Looks like a 2ZZ is probably much cheaper as a replacement, but I like the dyno on the 2AR. 2GR is more beastly, but I hesitate to cut frame rails or make the necessary hole in the firewall for access. Not so much about the hole itself, just dont want to have to work on it from there.

A25A looks like a bit much, technically and otherwise. But by the time ye olde 1ZZ is fading, maybe the 2AR goodies will be down a bit.

A single weekend, huh? So i should budget about a month, then.

The 2ZZ will always be cheaper but do remember that those engines are older and higher miles so they may need a rebuild. But even if you have $2500 wrapped up in your 2ZZ swap you'll never manage to add up to all the little bits & bobs required by a new engine swap. 

I'm no expert at all in the 2ZZ swap so feel free to correct me but here's what i understand the 2ZZ swap to require:

       2ZZ swap keeping the existing transmission

• • 2zz-ge engine with harness: $1200-1500 (may need rebuild due to age)
  • Right side motor mount: $49
  • ECU: $389
  • Adapter harness: $0-399 (sounds simple to do yourself instead of buying the PNP adapter)
  • Header: $449
  • Air intake pipe, MAF section & filter: $239
  • Lightweight Flywheel: $315
  • Organic clutch: $325

This is a much cheaper swap, the bottom dollar looks to be $3365 (included PNP harness in minimum since most people *HATE* wiring work.  

That’s a solid $1500 lower than the 2AR-FE swap and even if it needs a rebuild you’ll still likely be ahead

As for doing the 2ar-fe swap in a weekend, I honestly feel that it is a very doable goal for most. But watch the 5 video series to see for yourself:

$1500 is pretty cheap for the difference in power between the 2ar and the 2zz